need Filter for embarrassment

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Maestral
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need Filter for embarrassment

Postby Maestral » Tue May 28, 2013 6:07 pm

From time to time I`m stunned with the treatment here of the Inkscape developers or members of the forum which are contributing with their time and knowledge. At the same time, bursts of ignorance and stubbornness are tolerated and even (in my opinion) encouraged. Is there anybody who could put things in order, since it`s not like what`s older egg or the hen?

We`re all gathered here after some people decided to make Inkscape available and we keep coming here because there are some other people willing to introduce even more people with the Inkscape. Shall I feel embarrassed if I happen to know more about something? More than any of you? Shall I feel embarrassed if I happen to know less about something? For me, these are the two wonderful reasons to visit this forum.

Inkscape is a great thing and some great people are behind it, but this forum should be definitely preserved from ignorance and stubbornness. Again, it`s not like hen-egg thing and I would kindly ask for some intervention from those who can stop this pollution. Now it`s intolerable but I would not like to leave the forum because of someones ignorance and stubbornness. Shouldn't it be the other way around?!
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brynn
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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby brynn » Tue May 28, 2013 9:40 pm

I apologize for losing my patience with druban in that other topic. I am indeed, duly embarrassed :oops: I probably could have handled the situation in a more respectable manner, had I more support. But it's a very difficult situation for me, or probably a lot of other people to be in. I'm the one who is supposed to keep the forum running smoothly. But when my feelings are hurt, it's hard to be the voice of reason. (This is only 1 reason why another mod is needed.)

I've been feeling overwhelmed since around the 1st of the year, being really the only active member in this forum who has what is effectively a leadership role, as far as the functioning of the forum. Of course we have many, many leaders, as far as teaching, learning and understanding Inkscape. In that way, the forum has been functioning very well, imo. In that way, we're a really awesome community. I suspect perhaps that our admin probably would be satisfied with our sort of joint and mutual leadership in teaching, learning and understanding Inkscape. I suspect he may be less concerned about the functioning of the forum. And indeed, I'm forced to only guess about those things because I haven't communicated with our admin, probably more than 2 or 3 times in almost a year. (And just double that for the year before that.)

All I ever signed on to do, was to help keep the forum free from spam. But in the extended absence of an admin, or even a fellow moderator, I feel like I've had to take on more of a leadership role. (He would probably say I don't have to, if I don't want to. But someone has to do it, right?) I'm not a born leader. I have to learn as I go. There have been many times when I would appreciate some guidance in handling "bursts of ignorance and stubbornness". In those times, had it been entirely up to me, I would have acted in whatever way I saw fit. But it's not up to me entirely. I constantly have to respect that this is someone else's forum, who often has views which are different from mine (which I learned in the 1st year after I started as moderator) about running the forum. I cannot speak or act for him....certainly not without some intense guidance, or at least conversations, around how I should handle discipline in his forum.

Since around the 1st of this year, I've seen the forum really begin to mature, with a depth and richness of knowledge about Inkscape, which is unrivaled across the entire internet (at least in English language) save for the dev community. I see the forum at a critical juncture this year. I see certain changes will need to happen, to allow this forum to continue to mature, and serve its community effectively -- not the least of which would be the initiation of a formal warning system, so that members who "cross the line" may have some formal, official consequences or discipline. I see these things at the same time as I see little likelihood that any changes will ever happen. (When I use the word discipline here, I don't mean military-like, or anything approaching strict. But we do need some kind of consequences.)

I have informed microUgly about how I see the forum maturing, and some things that imo need to be changed or added to allow the forum to continue to grow and mature. I have asked for another moderator....or 2. I really don't think I should share his response to me, but suffice it to say that I don't expect any changes in the near future, and very little in the far future.

Maestral -- I do understand what you mean by "outbursts of ignorance and stubbornness". But I don't see it has risen to the level of "pollution". I see it more here and there....maybe because I don't read every msg closely. (Especially if the content is over my head, I'll just skim over. If someone throws out a brief derogatory comment, I might have missed it.) But if you would like to take the time, I certainly would like to understand more fully and more specifically which recent instances you see as inappropriate. Even if, and especially if they came from me. I want to understand how you apparently see it much more widespread than I do. Please PM that info to me! (if you like) I certainly do NOT want to publicly announce or discuss each specific concern on the forum. That would probably only serve to "stir the pot" as they say. But I do want to understand your concerns more fully. Perhaps you might want to Cc microUgly with that PM? Although that's entirely up to you. I definitely will email him about this topic, so maybe he will personally reply.

And anyone else who has specific concerns, please PM me. General concerns can certainly be posted in this topic, though.

Thank you for bringing up this subject Maestral. I'll be interested to read other comments :D

And I'd like to apologize again, for losing my patience.

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brynn
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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby brynn » Wed May 29, 2013 1:51 pm

Hi again,
BobSongs has PM'd me some examples of what he thinks Maestral is referring to, and incidents where he thinks inappropriate comments have been made to other members. I will refer to this as "sniping" and "professional sniping". His msg very much helped me to see the pervasive nature of this problem, and allowed me to form a much more objective perspective (whereas my previous msg was fairly well an emotional reaction) (although certainly factually correct). I will condense some of my comments in my reply to him, since they turned out to be nice overview of my perspective.

Unfortunately, I am not personally equipped, nor authorized by the admin, to moderate what might be called sniping, I guess. I tried, in my reply to Maestral to exlplain why I don't and/or can't provide a strong leadership or authority in this area.

My best guess about what microUgly would want done, is nothing. The last I heard from him on this subject (literally years ago) is that he thinks the forum should be self-disciplining. Everyone should act like professionals, and problems like this should be worked out among the participants in the problems. I think, he thinks, as long as everyone behaves like professionals, this type of problem should be minimal. I think he would say that there will always be this kind of sniping in a professional forum, but for the most part, forum members and visitors are able to access whatever info they might need about Inkscape, despite the sniping, and that's, after all, the purpose of this forum. That's paraphrasing what micro has told me in the past, about how to handle sniping.

I'm telling you, I've seen this coming. I know full well the limitations I have in acting as a moderator, in this particular forum. I've seen the forum, over this last 6 months, really begin to mature, and provide a depth and richness of support for Inkscape. I see so many discussions, that in my whole entire life will never be able to understand. It's impossible for me to moderate a discussion that I don't understand. When it's a blatant offense (such as druban's "comedy" routine) or a direct personal attack, yes, I can jump right in. (Although it's quite difficult to discipline someone for offending me directly. That's just 1 reason why we need another moderator!) But when it's buried in a long and technical discussion, and especially one which I don't understand, I literally am helpless to moderate any sniping which might occur. (Helpless due to lack of understanding of the subject matter, as well as lack of any formal or official authority to do so.)

Yes, indeed, as this forum has begun to mature, this sort of professional sniping has leaked into the forum, and now I understand that it's nearly pervasive, at this point. I didn't see it, because my focus is approving new members' first 2 msgs, deleting spam, banning spammers, and trolling for any spam that might have leaked through (and of course answering what msgs I can). Because of microUgly's early tutelage on the subject, I see the sniping, and as long as it's not outrageous, I let it go.....because that's what I was taught to do, as a moderator, in this forum.

Also, Maestral, I do not mean to belittle your comments and feelings, in relating how I was taught to handle this kind of thing. Now that I see the pervasive nature of this issue, and see it objectively, I am in total agreement with you. I do think, at this point in this forum's growth, we need moderators (or at least 1) who would be capable of handling such "professional sniping". But we're all somewhat bound by the wishes of the admin, at least in my opinion. (I guess it's really not worth mentioning that I personally disagree with this approach. But somehow I feel like I should. That's probably part of what makes this so frustrating for me, but I really do feel obligated to act as I think microUgly would like me to, or as he taught me.)

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Should we find ourselves continuing to get by without administration, perhaps we might want to develop some rules of conduct for ourselves, and pledge to try to participate accordingly? That's one thought I've had, towards a solution to this problem. But I seriously doubt that could ever happen, for several reasons (some obvious, others not worth mentioning).

Short of any guidance, or otherwise authoritative intervention from microUgly, I can only offer the following, 2, very strong and emphatic pleas:

1. If you don't have any constructive suggestions to offer another member who has asked for assistance, please simply refrain from replying!

2. If you don't posses the technical skills and knowledge with which to participate constructively in the discussion, please simply refrain from replying!

The only exception to these, would be if the member has specifically asked for comments, including criticism.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

SO! Now to summarize all of this, on strictly a personal level, I would like to emphasize the following:

This is me:
Image

(and my squawing seagull has flown the coop)
Any support you can give me, whether to alert me to any sniping which you may feel have "crossed the line"; or make suggestions for how to handle certain situations; or just to take heed of my above 2 pleas; would be extremely, and gratefully, appreciated! Thanks :D

PS -- a hopeful sign -- I've just heard from micro via email!
PPS - sorry this is so long

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Maestral
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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby Maestral » Wed May 29, 2013 8:35 pm

I have literally no experience with moderating nor administrating the forums and I`ll restrain my self from giving directions or strict suggestions regarding that matter. Still, perhaps if we start from the beginnings...

The word forum comes from the ancient times, referring to the public place where people gathered to discuss and/or participate in public life. Due to the different occasions and opinions, and due to the presence of groceries which were also legitimate tools for discussions, legacy which we inherited from these forums also includes: irony, sarcasm, skepticism... and many many more (i.e. debating).

A bit later, when we were indulged with www, at first there were bulletin boards, emailing lists, newsgroups.. etc. which enabled a group of people to be simultaneously informed about all of the new postings. It was expected from users to find these boards, lists or groups and to sign up/register or similar. Otherwise, these news were unavailable to them.

And now - we have forums, again! You can just watch, sign up/register and take a part or even decide which part(s) you would prefer to follow/to be informed about along with so many other personal preferences which were made available. But, to me, it sounds like a combo of the legacy from the ancient times and early stages of www.

Inkscape is a part of the Open source community and I would prefer if we could preserve that idea in presence, here on this forum. If you share an apple with someone - both of you`ll end up with the half of an apple, but if you share an idea with someone - you`ll end up with at least two ideas. Therefor, anyone is welcome to watch or to join in and due to the previously said I do share microUgly`s suggestion for self-directing (just stating my opinion). But, those who went trough the registration on this forum should be recognized as those who are willing to share, right? Since I`m not of those who lose their temper (I know where mine is, at any given time,) I can not resist to approach to "those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers....". ,)

I am not quite sure about limitations on this forum, more precisely I am not sure how much we could benefit from it. Still, this much freedom presumes that someone could start a topic here about Japanese poetry... well, personaly I wouldn`t mind but shall it be allowed? I`m not sure, but I am sure about the one thing: If someone can not stand the opposite opinion, perhaps it is the one you should keep for your self.
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BobSongs
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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby BobSongs » Thu May 30, 2013 3:10 am

I can appreciate your point of view, Maestral.

A thread's topic can allow for latitude. If someone asks: "Is this a good way to do X?" then members are free to answer Yes or No. Those who say "No" may post their wonderful ideas. That's great!

But when a topic is: "HOW do I do X?" the courteous response is: "Like this." Then demonstrate. But to say: "I've looked at your example and I don't like how you work" is off-topic and arrogant. The onus on forum members is to answer the question first. Then, if they wish to add a better technique as a courtesy ("By the way, if you use File > Make this image cleaner... you could reduce your file size by half."): that works too.

If we see a glaring error in a person's file or work methods, why not benefit the entire community! Tell the original poster you'll create a tutorial on how to avoid typical Inkscape pitfalls, then link to it when it's done. This avoids the need to search through all kinds of threads to find an answer: it's there for all to see under Tricks & Tutorials. brynn once asked a question about exporting shapes. I gave an answer in the thread, but decided that posting a tutorial on the subject would help clear things up for everyone.

new feature requests
A post that asks for clarity or for more information on how a new feature would improve Inkscape is understandable. Please avoid the following posts:

  • "Oh, we don't need a button for that! All you have to do is walk through these 47 simple steps and presto! In no less than 2 hours you've got exactly what you've asked for! Who needs a button to do it all for you?"
  • "Hmm, I don't think I would ever use that button/feature/tool. I can't see why anyone would NEED that." (i.e., if I can't imagine it, you don't need it.)
  • "That's not what Inkscape is for."
These suggestions are merely that: suggestions. I see no need to snipe at them. In the end any new features added to Inkscape will be reviewed by the developers, worked by the developers and given to us to test in beta versions for quite some time before final adoption. There will be ample time to offer suggestions to improve any new tools.

Lazur
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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby Lazur » Thu May 30, 2013 4:50 am

BobSongs wrote:I can appreciate your point of view, Maestral.

A thread's topic can allow for latitude. If someone asks: "Is this a good way to do X?" then members are free to answer Yes or No. Those who say "No" may post their wonderful ideas. That's great!

But when a topic is: "HOW do I do X?" the courteous response is: "Like this." Then demonstrate. But to say: "I've looked at your example and I don't like how you work" is off-topic and arrogant. The onus on forum members is to answer the question first. Then, if they wish to add a better technique as a courtesy ("By the way, if you use File > Make this image cleaner... you could reduce your file size by half."): that works too.

If we see a glaring error in a person's file or work methods, why not benefit the entire community! Tell the original poster you'll create a tutorial on how to avoid typical Inkscape pitfalls, then link to it when it's done. This avoids the need to search through all kinds of threads to find an answer: it's there for all to see under Tricks & Tutorials. brynn once asked a question about exporting shapes. I gave an answer in the thread, but decided that posting a tutorial on the subject would help clear things up for everyone.

new feature requests
A post that asks for clarity or for more information on how a new feature would improve Inkscape is understandable. Please avoid the following posts:

  • "Oh, we don't need a button for that! All you have to do is walk through these 47 simple steps and presto! In no less than 2 hours you've got exactly what you've asked for! Who needs a button to do it all for you?"
  • "Hmm, I don't think I would ever use that button/feature/tool. I can't see why anyone would NEED that." (i.e., if I can't imagine it, you don't need it.)
  • "That's not what Inkscape is for."
These suggestions are merely that: suggestions. I see no need to snipe at them. In the end any new features added to Inkscape will be reviewed by the developers, worked by the developers and given to us to test in beta versions for quite some time before final adoption. There will be ample time to offer suggestions to improve any new tools.


Let's get it straight:
You are referring on http://www.inkscapeforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14108

fred9300, original poster wrote:Cannot get HQ quality PDF from SVG for printing.
I even tried several 3rd party converters
I have tried everything, I think.

version 0.48 on win 7
lots of grahics.
Here is the file, can anyone get a hq pdf from it?
http://sdrv.ms/10QDNW4
or
http://sdrv.ms/10QE4Iy

Thanks in advance


Which I gave the comment:
Lazur URH wrote:Opened that svg.
The only thing that cannot be converted to hq -my guess: vector- pdf, is that pink png in the front.
Doesn't really necessary to use it, as you have the same pattern as a vector copy in the background pattern.
There are some other aspects that could be handled better, but it wont effect the quality just the file size.


Which you gave a comment of:
BobSongs wrote:
Off topic:
Lazur URH wrote:There are some other aspects that could be handled better, but it wont effect the quality just the file size.

And the point of adding this post? You're telling the artist how to do his job?

Lazur? If you're not going to answer the OP's post, then surround your message in [offtopic] please. The OP's questions is:
Fred9300 wrote:can anyone get a hq pdf from it?

Seriously: If you're not going to answer the original poster's question (which can certain include asking him/her questions for clarity), either avoid answering or mark it offtopic.




Again, focusing on your problem:
original poster wrote:...Here is the file, can anyone get a hq pdf from it?...


^-- is not a question you defined as
BobSongs wrote:... "HOW do I do X?" ...


1. That's a simple yes or no question. An answer that wouldn't help at all the problem why the original post was submitted.
2. That question didn't define anything exact that should be achieved.
HQ is not informative.
In my opinion hq is when no rasters are embedded.
Some may think it otherwise, like hq as doesn't containing anything unnecessary, and making the file size as low as possible.
Lazur URH wrote:...
There are some other aspects that could be handled better, but it wont effect the quality just the file size....

Cleaning the file wouldn't improve the display quality, but would produce a theoretically more efficient design,
which can be called hq too.

Actually that answer was informative as stating that the display quality cannot be improved on that file except for those embedded images.

While you gave an answer on the original post:
BobSongs wrote:Okay. This is what I've got so far.

I don't have all the fonts listed in the document, in particular a font called "EraserDust" on the chef's chalkboard. So I'll leave the converting to Fred9300.

Try these steps.

From the file menu: File > Save As...
In the dialog box: Click the text to the right of Save as type... and choose Portable Document Type (*.pdf). Click the Save button.
Portable Document dialog box:

    [PDF 1.5] Restrict to PDF version
    [x] Convert texts to paths
    [ ] PDF +LaTeX: Omit text in PDF, and create LaTeX file
    [x] Rasterize Filter effects
    [300] Resolution for rasterization (dpi)
    [ ] Export area is drawing
    [x] Export area is page
From this point, open the PDF and print. Let us know if this is the print quality you're looking for, Fred9300.


For print ready pdf view, which would answer any of the faults that would result in not turning out as hq pdf?

Converting text to paths - good option if the fonts are not installed on the printing device, but it won't improve the quality.
Fonts are vectors by themselves.

Rasterize filter effects - another good option, if any of raster based effect is used.
None was included, you could see that.

Export area is page - theoretically it is a good choice, but it really wont effect the displayed pdf's quality. It would only set the borders right.


[sarcasm]So you gave some highly informative answers, that I couldn't reach with my cheap reply.[/sarcasm]
BobSongs wrote:If we see a glaring error in a person's file or work methods, why not benefit the entire community!

[sarcasm^2]I see your point.
My answer had a glaring error, thus you pointed out how ignorant and embarrasing my act was, for the benefit of the entire community.[/sarcasm^2]

But apart from this, none of our answers was a match for the original poster's answer,
that caused such unnecessary -and unwanted for the community- drama.
As, it wasn't a clear question.

In my humble opinion not a "Filter for embarrassment" would be needed, but
a way to make first posters read and understand that important guide on how to ask new questions.
If it was a chatroom not a forum, that question could be clarified in no time, and there would be less posts that would be better filtered.
Off topic:
How ironic is to complain about filtering on a forum for an OPEN SOURCE program's users?

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Maestral
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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby Maestral » Thu May 30, 2013 9:21 am

Smells like misunderstanding?!

@Lazur URH
In the first post I`ve avoided to form a list of "members of the forum which are contributing with their time and knowledge" but I would surely find a place for you on that list. Also, I`ve mentioned legacy from ancient forums and how it could relate with these in our times - so irony, sarcasm or skepticism along with the flying groceries shouldn`t be that much new or quite surprising elements, right? Au contraire, mon ami ...

If politeness would be as often as questions like... "I want....", "I need..." then I would restrain my self from posting something like this. That very same politeness should include reading and understanding of that Important guide and most likely would eliminate a need for addressing the BobSongs point of view.

@ BobSongs
I`m not that regular on this forum, but for these almost two years I have witnessed just a few times where "members of the forum..." came close to cross the line and as much as I could recall it was followed either with an explanation or apologizing and turning things back on the right track. There is nobody, which I could recognize as a "member of the forum...", which would need any instructions or supervision on their conducting here on the forum. On the other hand, through out these two years I`ve witnessed soooo many "I don`t want to read that silly Important guide, because I just want... or I just need....". So, please tell me - buy which or what criteria is possible to have warnings issued for developers or "members.." while those in their ignorant need for help are treated as ... well, chose an epithet due to your preferences while depicting the "endangered species"? I really can`t see it as a hen-egg dilemma. To be frank, I`m so close to be certain that there is so many users of Inkscape which are in some kind of agony and in constant need for expedite help, which made me thinking - perhaps we should recommend Inkscape as a part of some medical survey?
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brynn
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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby brynn » Thu May 30, 2013 2:42 pm

BobSongs wrote:new feature requests
A post that asks for clarity or for more information on how a new feature would improve Inkscape is understandable. Please avoid the following posts:

  • "Oh, we don't need a button for that! All you have to do is walk through these 47 simple steps and presto! In no less than 2 hours you've got exactly what you've asked for! Who needs a button to do it all for you?"
  • "Hmm, I don't think I would ever use that button/feature/tool. I can't see why anyone would NEED that." (i.e., if I can't imagine it, you don't need it.)
  • "That's not what Inkscape is for."
These suggestions are merely that: suggestions. I see no need to snipe at them. In the end any new features added to Inkscape will be reviewed by the developers, worked by the developers and given to us to test in beta versions for quite some time before final adoption. There will be ample time to offer suggestions to improve any new tools.

I would say those comments would be fine, as long as "in my opinion" is included. Actually, many, MANY misunderstandings can be avoided by the use of those 3 or 4 simple letters or words: imo or imho, "in my opinion" or "in my humble opinion". Right?

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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby brynn » Thu May 30, 2013 3:11 pm

Ok, I have a few more comments to make, based on some questions which were PM'd to me.

For those who don't natively read/write English, "snipe" means "to make malicious, underhanded remarks or attacks". I think it's derived from the same as "sniper", which is "someone who shoots (a gun, e.g. or comment, as in this case) from a concealed position". Another American phrase which might help in understanding "snipe" would be "to take pot shots"

And speaking of non native English readers/writers, the point has been made (to me privately) that as a global community, we all come with different customs and manners. What might seem ok for some, might be unreasonable to others. But the most important point I would make, is that sometimes translations just don't come out right, whether the author is translating, or a translation program/script is used, and especially so for the latter. So we need to be mindful of that as well.

So for the topic mentioned above, where BobSongs thought Lazur URH was a little rude, for all I know, it might have been a perfectly polite statement before it was translated. Maybe it just an unfortunate translation? We are lucky to have such gifted global community. Indeed, many members read and write English so well, that I often forget they aren't native English readers/writers. Also, for the record, BobSongs has said to me that he realizes his comments to Lazur were equally inappropriate. So if everything has now been said about that topic, can we let it rest? Edit -- actually I had to lock it, due to excessive off topic comments.

I know some of you may be waiting for individual topics to be mentioned and criticized. But I'm not going to do that, as instructional as it could theoretically be. I think it will just breed further anger, resentment, and negative remarks; and delay the forum getting back to the business of helping Inkscape users. However, if anyone is still unclear about the type of comments which are inappropriate, I'd be glad to make some generic examples up out of my head. Just lmk :D

The message I hope everyone takes away from this, is to try and remember your manners. As much as some might like it, this is not the frat house, or the gym or the bar. It may not be an executive board room, but this should be considered as a professional forum, and professional ethics should be the rule. I'm sure there must be a good deal of disagreement among the Inkscape devs. But if they were to regress to such a level of sniping at each other, that we've seen in this forum, over the last couple of months, Inkscape would not get made. Someone mentioned to me how embarrassed they would be for devs to read some of the topics which contain the poor manners. I would agree ;)

And finally, a couple of people, in the last couple of days, have found it entertaining to complain that humor is no longer allowed. That is not the case. There is no problem with humor. However, I should point out that I don't consider druban's comment to me (about a filter editor icon) to be humorous. It was intended as an insult, and insulting other members (on purpose) is not allowed.

So unless I get any further comments about these issues, which need to be shared, I hope we can all chalk this up to lessons learned, lick our many individual wounds, and come back to the forum tomorrow, fresh, and ready to help Inkscape users. Please?

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Maestral
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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby Maestral » Thu May 30, 2013 8:22 pm

brynn wrote:
"I apologize for losing my patience with druban in that other topic. I am indeed, duly embarrassed :oops: I probably could have handled the situation in a more respectable manner, had I more support. But it's a very difficult situation for me, or probably a lot of other people to be in. I'm the one who is supposed to keep the forum running smoothly. But when my feelings are hurt, it's hard to be the voice of reason. (This is only 1 reason why another mod is needed.)"


...
"I certainly do NOT want to publicly announce or discuss each specific concern on the forum. That would probably only serve to "stir the pot" as they say. But I do want to understand your concerns more fully."


and after all of this...

"However, I should point out that I don't consider druban's comment to me (about a filter editor icon) to be humorous. It was intended as an insult, and insulting other members (on purpose) is not allowed."


?!

De gustibus non est disputandum

Feelings, opinions, personal preferences are matters of subjective nature, and they could perfectly fit this Latin quotation. On the other hand, arguments are most welcomed in any debate.

I`ve noticed that you tend to address to professionals here on the forum, and I`ll say that Keyboard shortcuts could/should be treated as tools of the trade in computing. Allow me to introduce you with some cases from my experience.

While ago, I worked with a guy on a short animation. We were using Macromedia Flash (mx5 if I recall it properly), which includes dealing with vector shapes. I`ve showed and explained him how it all could be done and then went to do my part of the job. Later on, I came to see how is he doing and then I realized that he has done the whole thing without touching the mouse. Flash had a nasty habit to mess things up if you tried to modify existing parts of the animation. Since this guy, which I mentioned, due to his lack of experience in that particular task had to made some corrections, when faced with these naughty circumstances - he decide to do it wright in his way (through the keyboard) and he did it pretty much faster than if it would be done trough the usual routine with the mouse and menus and tools and even some given shortcuts... etc. It means that he had time to do it once, then to try to fine tune some movements, perhaps tried a few more times and then just left the mouse aside and finished the whole thing properly by using only the keyboard.

But I have also experienced the other side of the Moon. It`s just the two of us, other two of us, working on a different project and from time to time one could hear: "You were saying... for pasting.. it`s what? Control plus .. which one?".

These are the extreme cases and sometimes we are facing the narrow choices (if any in some occasions) but we will all wake up tomorrow and try to do it better, again and again and again.....
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Maestral
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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby Maestral » Thu May 30, 2013 8:49 pm

Ah, yes... one more thing

I do hope you would allow me a liberty to chose to inform you (or not) if I`m under impression that this topic should be (or should not be) locked.
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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby druban » Fri May 31, 2013 10:42 am

Off topic:
Maestral wrote:I do hope you would allow me a liberty to chose to inform you (or not) if I`m under impression that this topic should be (or should not be) locked.


Indeed, who better than the original poster would be able to decide if a topic has 'too many' off topic posts?
I for one am a user of the forum who appreciates not having to deal with advertising and spam, but when the free exchange of ideas - and that includes opinions! - is restricted, I can't help but wonder if the baby went out with the bathwater.

Great idea, Maestral!
Your mind is what you think it is.

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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby brynn » Fri May 31, 2013 11:08 am

Maestral wrote:
brynn wrote:
"I apologize for losing my patience with druban in that other topic. I am indeed, duly embarrassed :oops: I probably could have handled the situation in a more respectable manner, had I more support. But it's a very difficult situation for me, or probably a lot of other people to be in. I'm the one who is supposed to keep the forum running smoothly. But when my feelings are hurt, it's hard to be the voice of reason. (This is only 1 reason why another mod is needed.)"


...
"I certainly do NOT want to publicly announce or discuss each specific concern on the forum. That would probably only serve to "stir the pot" as they say. But I do want to understand your concerns more fully."


and after all of this...

"However, I should point out that I don't consider druban's comment to me (about a filter editor icon) to be humorous. It was intended as an insult, and insulting other members (on purpose) is not allowed."


?!

When I said I didn't want to publicly discuss each and every infraction that you see, I said it only in this topic....this topic, whose title I thought you had punned from the title of the topic where druban made those remarks. You'll notice that I did not link to the topic, nor repeat the words.

druban wrote:
Maestral wrote:I do hope you would allow me a liberty to chose to inform you (or not) if I`m under impression that this topic should be (or should not be) locked.


Indeed, who better than the original poster would be able to decide if a topic has 'too many' off topic posts?
I for one am a user of the forum who appreciates not having to deal with advertising and spam, but when the free exchange of ideas - and that includes opinions! - is restricted, I can't help but wonder if the baby went out with the bathwater.

Great idea, Maestral!


druban, if you had said your comments in that other topic, with the qualification "in my opinion" I would not have had nearly as strong a reaction as I did. In fact I probably would not have reacted at all.

Maestral wrote:Ah, yes... one more thing

I do hope you would allow me a liberty to chose to inform you (or not) if I`m under impression that this topic should be (or should not be) locked.

Until now, I didn't know if regular members were allowed to lock their own topics, or not. If this means that you aren't, I will certainly lock it for you, if that's what you want. And indeed, after your last few comments, I was about to lock it anyway!

Do you want me to lock it?

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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby Maestral » Fri May 31, 2013 6:02 pm

Even though English is not my 1st language, I`m encouraged by so many successful conversation I`ve already had (with people whose native tongue is English) to use it. I do make some typing or grammar errors, here and there, but who doesn`t. Also, I`m keen toward resolving misunderstandings in order to reach or establish pleasant and meaningful relations with other people. Still, I`m unable to understand what made you conclude about what I want? Could you please explain your self or at least point out which part(s) of the sentence: "I do hope you would allow me a liberty to chose to inform you (or not) if I`m under impression that this topic should be (or should not be) locked." made you think about what I want?

Let me remind you -about- -a few- -things-

There is a saying in Serbian:
Road to hell is paved with the best intentions.
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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby brynn » Fri May 31, 2013 8:38 pm

Maestral wrote:Ah, yes... one more thing

I do hope you would allow me a liberty to chose to inform you (or not) if I`m under impression that this topic should be (or should not be) locked.

The above quote from you is what gave me the idea you might want the topic to be locked. Otherwise, why would you ask that? What am I supposed to think? You'd like a pony for your birthday?

You know, Maestral, the only reason I stepped up and offered 2 simple guidelines for forum behavior, was because you yourself asked for some authority, to get rid of all this pollution that you see. I knew microUgly wasn't going to provide that. So I did my best.

I don't think either of those guidelines is outside anyone's pre-existing expectations about forum behavior. I thought I was just reminding people to mind their manners.

What do I get for my efforts? More ridicule. And absolutely the most childish behavior that I've ever witnessed allowed to exist in a forum, without serious discipline.

druban did his level best to drive me away. And he darn near did....except that I knew he was punishing me for something someone else said. You, Maestral, may not have seen all that he did, because I got most of it deleted pretty quick. (It was spread through several other topics, where he thought it would be fun to involve innocent bystanders with his antics.) You may not have seen it, but druban knows. And Ragnar was in on it too. Ragnar, the last person I would ever expect to behave in such a way!

I want you all to know that in the end, it was microUgly's apathy that did me in. With only the most minimal amount of support from him, I think we could've gotten through all this uproar. His solution is to tell me that I need a break. He, who hasn't posted a message in nearly 6 months in his own forum, and who I haven't spoken to more than 2 or 3 times in almost a year, probably has no idea just how well his forum has been doing. I'd be surprised if he even posts a single message in reponse to all this. Taking a break isn't a very good way to solve a problem, in my opinion. For goodness sakes!

And by the way, that's what he always says when I ask a question -- just take a break -- and that's if he answers me at all :roll: I just always thought you all could help me solve any problems that might come along. I never thought any of you could behave so very badly, towards anyone. So anyone with designs on this moderator position, take heed! You will be fighting a losing battle!

If he wants a forum that allows the kind of derision and childish behavior which I've attempted to moderate over these last few days, he can have it. And he will. And you, Maestral, will never see less pollution in this forum, unless and until the time when microUgly bows out entirely. And as long as he can get some hapless fool to delete spam, I suspect he'll never bow out.

So, I tried my best. It wasn't good enough. That's how life goes sometimes.

Most of you all will not see me again for a very long time, if ever. Period, end of story.

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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby ragstian » Sat Jun 01, 2013 12:04 am

Hi

brynn;
And Ragnar was in on it too. Ragnar, the last person I would ever expect to behave in such a way!


Sorry for the "Juvenile" or "Childish" behavior, in one of your post it was emphasized that off-topic posts should be clearly marked. When I saw the "Off-topic Border" someone else used I thought that is fitted the description of being "clearly marked". By using the border I did not try to hurt anyone's feelings. Sorry if that happened.
After getting a PM about it I went back and changed my posts.
I feel the "Issues" witch started a while back in the "Keyboard vs Icon" discussion has really grown out of proportions.
If, by my actions on this forum, have hurt your feelings you hereby have my sincerest apologies.

RGDS
Ragnar
Good Luck!
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
RGDS
Ragnar

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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby druban » Sat Jun 01, 2013 1:57 am

brynn wrote:Maestral wrote:Ah, yes... one more thing

I do hope you would allow me a liberty to chose to inform you (or not) if I`m under impression that this topic should be (or should not be) locked.

The above quote from you is what gave me the idea you might want the topic to be locked. Otherwise, why would you ask that? What am I supposed to think? You'd like a pony for your birthday?


I wonder if you are being facetious or humorous here or if there's a communication problem because I quite easily interpret Maestral's comment to mean, "I hope you will let me make any decisions about whether or not my topic should be locked, and not take that decision upon yourself."

Where
brynn wrote:...without serious discipline.


There is nothing childish, frivolous or off topic about this question: "Why do you think that forum users need so much serious discipline?"

brynn wrote: You, Maestral, may not have seen all that he did, because I got most of it deleted pretty quick.


And neither will anyone else. So you can say whatever you like about posts that only you see? Is this your answer? Any post that questions your behavior gets deleted? Any post that quotes your PM gets deleted? And in the meantime you fire off PM using abusive language that would get any one banned in any forum?

brynn wrote: He, who hasn't posted a message in nearly 6 months in his own forum, and who I haven't spoken to more than 2 or 3 times in almost a year, probably has no idea just how well his forum has been doing.


Microugly has been visiting the forum regularly enough that when I look at his user profile it's never shown more than a day - or two at the most - since his last visit. So I think it's safe to assume he is aware of the state of things. What you describe as 'apathy' seems to me a much more respectful way of letting adults on an internet forum govern their own behavior. As I have said elsewhere, this is not about a lack of respect for you, but rather your lack of respect for forum users as autonomous adults. I understand that you are trying to create a very tightly regulated and disciplined forum here. I am pointing out that if the forum owner does not have this vision of his forum, and I don't see a wave of requests from the users asking you to clamp down and impose discipline and order, who exactly are you serving here but yourself?

How long do you plan to keep censoring dissent by locking topics, deleting posts and banning users? Is it paranoid to think that forum members have been raising these questions for a while and being removed quietly and behind the scenes?
Your mind is what you think it is.

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Re: need Filter for embarrassment

Postby microUgly » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:32 am

I apologise for my long term absence on this forum--clearly it's suffered somewhat from having someone here to draw a line.

I'm going to refine Brynn's suggestion of etiquette:
1. If you don't have any constructive suggestions to offer another member who has asked for assistance, please simply refrain from replying.
2. If you receive unconstructive responses, exercise your right to ignore it.

I don't have time to review the specific incidents that has lead to this thread. But let's call a truce and in future when you are posting, ask yourself these two questions which relates to my previous two points:
1. Am I being a troll
2. Am I feeding a troll

If you feel someone's posts need my attentions use the "Report post" button at the top right of each post. And if you are having an ongoing issue with another member, you have the ability to mark them as a "Foe" when you view their profile which will hide their posts.


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