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need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:14 pm
by brynn
Hi Friends,
I was just feeling frustrated about having to go to the bottom of the Filters menu, to get the Filter Editor open. And I was thinking we need an icon for the filter editor on the command bar, just in the same area as Fill and Stroke icon, Layers menu icon, etc. (I know about the key shortcut, but that's not really my thing.)

Is it worth asking for officially?

Thanks for comments :D

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 6:05 pm
by druban
What's a command bar?

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brynn wrote:I know about the key shortcut, but that's not really my thing.


I really admire those people that say, "Never used one'a those dad-blamed shortcuts in my life, and by golly I ain't gonna start now!"
Really, I do. Honest. Strength of character, it shows!

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:21 pm
by v1nce
druban wrote:What's a command bar?


What's a menu usefull for when you got shortcuts...
What's a colorpicker when you can enter hex code...

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Wed May 22, 2013 10:36 pm
by Lazur
Off topic:
Command bar might be similar to space bar.
Image

What's python when you have assembly?

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 12:54 am
by BobSongs
brynn wrote:Hi Friends,
I was just feeling frustrated about having to go to the bottom of the Filters menu, to get the Filter Editor open. And I was thinking we need an icon for the filter editor on the command bar, just in the same area as Fill and Stroke icon, Layers menu icon, etc. (I know about the key shortcut, but that's not really my thing.)

Is it worth asking for officially?

Thanks for comments :D

Looks like this post has only gotten a number of off topic humorous answers.

on the serious side
I guess this relates to my request for fly-outs. As Druban inferred: a new button can be ignored. It's difficult to ignore the lack of a button that could simplify day-to-day tasks. Hence: a dozen pre-designed star shapes and multiple sided something-ogons when the star tool is clicked.

I've seen both sides of the argument. Some say memorizing your keyboard shortcuts (as we did in the good ol' DOS 3.2 days) improves finger health. Others argue that a mouse and a healthy array of icons improves productivity. I personally go for the latter (which explains why I requested fly-outs for the only 4 shape tools Inscape offers). I would prefer to choose from among 35 pre-made shapes than 4.

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 5:47 am
by v1nce
I would like to be able to add buttons and associate 'em with external script (or launch a tool with custom settings)
I would like to be able to reorder the buttons to make the order more logical (to me)

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 8:53 am
by flamingolady
I'd love a button for the Filter editor, maybe the Path editor too (in my mind the LPE and Path editors should be in the same place and I end up going into Extensions instead of the Path Editor, oh well, that's just me).
Like V1nce said, the ability to reorder buttons would be great, I am so tired of clicking on the print button instead of the save button by mistake, ugh, so annoying.
I am one of those people that need to learn shortcuts, but how do you learn them easily, without constantly referring to the manual? My memory isn't what it used to be, wouldn't a popup for shortcuts be nice, then at some point I would actually use them enough to remember them (then I'd only have to remember one shortcut to bring a popup shortcut menu, lol). Guess that's the fun of self taught programs. Plus, I use a laptop, and it seems like it uses different buttons on some shortcuts.

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:04 am
by druban
I guess no one has really ever explained to me why they don't like keyboard shortcuts - or why they find them difficult to use. Take Dee's last comment - about save and print. It would be really impossible to mistakenly type ctrl-S when you meant to type ctrl-P. Ooops! I meant to type 'impossible to mistakenly type ctrl-P when you meant to type ctrl-S!!' :D Also not clear on why at least the most obvious shortcuts are hard to remember - some are windows standard, some are standard across all platforms even!
But I'm a minority, I think...
In any case, in the next version the shortcuts will be GUI customizable from the preferences dialog.... I'm not at all sure how much more programming it would take to make buttons customizable to the point that users could decide their position! I'm guessing a lot, especially across platforms.
IMO Bob's request is quite different - he wants functionality that does not exist yet, and a reasonable case might be made that it would indeed speed up workflow. Not at all the same case as saying that the present interface is too difficult to use...

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 11:11 am
by flamingolady
Druban,
Actually, I'm not anti shortcut, maybe just not enough memory left on my brain ram, lol. or, maybe you grew up using shortcuts from the get go - (not sure of your age and how long you've been using a computer). We didn't have shortcuts back when computers started (when I roamed with the dinosaurs)! Point being, how one is taught to learn tends to stick with you. I learned to use icons, been doing it for over 30 yrs, so it's a hard thing to change. So, is there an easy way to know which procedures have shortcuts? Who has the time to stop and open up the manual and do a search on every thing you do? Now if we could have a pop up cheat sheet come up that I could keep referring to, that would help.

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Thu May 23, 2013 6:29 pm
by v1nce
flamingolady wrote:I am one of those people that need to learn shortcuts, but how do you learn them easily, without constantly referring to the manual? My memory isn't what it used to be, wouldn't a popup for shortcuts be nice, then at some point I would actually use them enough to remember them (then I'd only have to remember one shortcut to bring a popup shortcut menu, lol).


a log (/undo) window with your last actions and the shortcut associated ?

Off topic:
Plus the ability to turn those actions into a macro ?

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 2:51 am
by brynn
Contrary to apparently the popular opinion that I started this topic as a joke, I actually am suggesting something that I think would be helpful.

Image

druban wrote:I really admire those people that say, "Never used one'a those dad-blamed shortcuts in my life, and by golly I ain't gonna start now!"
Really, I do. Honest. Strength of character, it shows!

Well then let's just remove every button which also has a key shortcut. That will make Inkscape REALLY intuitive! Let's just keep the shortcut page (http://inkscape.org/doc/keys048.html) open permanently on a tab in our browsers. I know, let's have it open by default, whenever Inkscape is opened.

If you don't think it would be helpful, then please KINDLY say so. There's no reason to denigrate the person who sees to it that you actually have messages to answer; which I assume is the reason you like to visit this forum (to answer messages).

druban wrote:I guess no one has really ever explained to me why they don't like keyboard shortcuts - or why they find them difficult to use.

What? A serious question? Please start a new topic, rather than hijack this one.

If you don't see me around for the next few days, just keep re-reading this topic. Maybe you'll figure it out!

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 6:21 am
by flamingolady
"V1nce wrote: a log (/undo) window with your last actions and the shortcut associated ?"
V1nce - Sorry, but I don't quite understand what this means? I actually wouldn't mind it if a popup of the shortcuts could appear each time Inkscape opened, then we'd have a quick reference and I could learn them (yes, am serious BTW, lol).


Brynn, first off, so, sorry you feel that this subject hasn't been taken seriously. Obviously I don't know peoples' intentions when posting, but I guess I didn't see the same disrespect that you have, I just took it as guys kidding around. I've never seen any of these people be intentionally mean before, so I don't feel personally like they were slinging anything nasty or mean at you. I just think possibly people are on different wavelengths about which issues need addressing, etc. (and some issues may be a sore spot with developers/coders, etc, not sure if this is one of them).
Anyway, I hope they'll take another look at it and realize that it did hurt your feelings (whether intentional or not), that you do feel disrespected, (and that they'll apologize either openly here or privately via PM).
And after saying that, I will step back - as I have no intentions of getting in or starting anything - I really like this forum and all the people on here, (and am ever so grateful that my idiotic questions are even answered, lol).
dee

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 11:30 am
by BobSongs
Off topic:
brynn wrote:Contrary to apparently the popular opinion that I started this topic as a joke...
flamingolady wrote:sorry you feel that this subject hasn't been taken seriously...

druban's point was veiled in humor. Technically he wasn't addressing the suggested button's usefulness, but the over-all usefulness of a clickable buttons. That makes it off-topic.

BobSongs wrote:"A new button can be ignored. It's difficult to ignore the lack of a button that could simplify day-to-day tasks"

I don't use the feature the button would produce. Not at all. But I do support the idea that Inkscape's general interface is lagging behind and somewhat inflexible.

EDIT: I wanted to add something. I do appreciate Inkscape along with the many hours that the developers put into it. My statement about Inkscape's flexibility should be clarified. The toolbar is set in stone. We cannot move, add or remove buttons. It can be removed to accommodate some users or even to make more room for the tableau. However, I would like to see brynn's icon added along with a number of others. And lastly, the power to add/remove/edit the selection of current buttons according to the user's tastes.

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Fri May 24, 2013 8:02 pm
by druban
brynn wrote:If you don't think it would be helpful, then please KINDLY say so. There's no reason to denigrate the person who sees to it that you actually have messages to answer; which I assume is the reason you like to visit this forum (to answer messages)...... If you don't see me around for the next few days, just keep re-reading this topic. Maybe you'll figure it out!


Didn't mean to denigrate you, or anyone. I do think it's possible to use humor to make a point more effectively than outright criticism, although in this instance I would have to say that I misjudged its effectiveness. I understand that you feel slighted, but since your original post said,
brynn wrote:'I know about the key shortcut, but that's not really my thing'
without offering any explanation of why it's not your 'thing', my responses were neither off-topic nor an attempt to 'hijack' your thread.

It's difficult to be a moderator, I'm sure. and in that position I, and perhaps anyone, would find it hard to remember which hat I was wearing, forum user or moderator, when making a post or responding to one.
I have many reasons to visit this forum, only a minor one of which is to answer questions. There are many others that do a far more creditable job in that area.

In fact, I do know what the command bar is. That was humor. The command bar's buttons generally support the feeble point I am making here. Look at the Open, New, Print, Save, Copy, Cut, Paste, Redo and Undo buttons. The shortcuts for these are standard. A first time user (to computers) should use the menus to avoid having to say in the future, "I didn't know there was an option to --- ! There's no button for it!" Not opening the menus slows down acquisition of a program's functions.
An experienced user (of computers) will find the shortcuts to these commands standard across applications and even platforms. Having to move the cursor to the toolbar for these functions is a huge waste of time. Encouraging it is not doing users any favors.
That leaves the other buttons - ones that are applicable to Inkscape only. The ones that have shortcuts have popups that tell you the shortcut. They have been designed for you to remember the shortcut! Shift + Ctrl = Open a dialog, the letter following indicates the dialog it will open in the simplest way: F for fill and stroke, A for align and distribute, T for text and Font, L for Layers, X for XML .... (I am not being facetious when I say I truly don't understand what the difficulty might be with remembering to associate the letter L with Layers etc.)
It's a stunning waste of time - and I've watched students do it - to drag your mouse up to the command bar or the menu to open the frequently used fill and stroke and align dialogs. Again and again and again. (The only thing that wastes more time is traveling to the toolbar to switch to the selector, node, and Bezier tools).
brynn wrote:Well then let's just remove every button which also has a key shortcut.

Although you are probably not being serious here, I think this would be a pretty good idea. It's not really necessary because the toolbars can be hidden, but I think people would in general learn to use the program faster and more efficiently. The only toolbars that I recommend users have showing are the ones that contain buttons that have no shortcuts. I also think that shortcuts that are more than three keys are not really shortcuts so buttons for those are reasonable too... (E.g. Ctrl + Shift + Alt + X)
brynn wrote: Let's just keep the shortcut page (http://inkscape.org/doc/keys048.html) open permanently on a tab in our browsers.

It's definitely on my favorites bar - it's easily the most useful link on it. And yes, when doing a lot of node editing I DO have it open for reference.

And that brings me to your initial request - not wanting to travel all the way to the bottom of the filter menu to open the filter editor. This is exactly my point - having to move around the screen is a huge waste of time if you can use a shortcut - whether you are going to a toolbar or to the bottom of a menu. So it seems we are in agreement after all. Sadly,there isn't a shortcut for the filter editor. If you are on a dev. build you can easily add one through the prefs, and if you are on an older version try dropping this

Code: Select all

<bind
     key="i"
     modifiers="Ctrl,Shift"
     action="DialogFilterEffects"
     display="true" />
  <bind
     key="I"
     modifiers="Ctrl,Shift"
     action="DialogFilterEffects" />

into your 'keys' folder's default.xml. No guarantees! Save a copy first. I used Ctrl + Shift + I for obvious reasons...

Sorry that your feelings were hurt. I will definitely be more careful with them in the future.

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 5:41 am
by brynn
druban wrote:Didn't mean to denigrate you, or anyone. I do think it's possible to use humor to make a point more effectively than outright criticism....

Well, given the choice, I would prefer outright criticism. At least it would be an indication of respect. I think most people would prefer to be honestly criticized than crassly laughed at.

druban wrote:....but since your original post said,
brynn wrote:'I know about the key shortcut, but that's not really my thing'
without offering any explanation of why it's not your 'thing'....

I thought we had covered the reasons I prefer not to use key shortcuts in the past. I didn't think I needed to go over them, yet again. Do I make fun of you for wasting all of what all too soon will become your precious memory, when you could so simply click a button? I don't really believe you can't think of any reasons why people might not want to use key shortcuts exclusively. But I'll PM you with that info, rather than embarrass you here.

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 7:42 am
by druban
Off topic:
brynn wrote: Most of the times when you've slashed members at the knees with your "humor" in this forum, it's been well-deserved. The other few times were borderline, and I let them go. Unfortunately, either this forum does not have, or I don't have access to, a warning system.

But know this. If I could have, I would have formally warned you, and applied whatever consequences might have been available to me. Also, I ban members every single day.


I apologize to everyone for my lack of respect and wasting their time with irrelevant and inappropriate posts! I am going to go through my posts and delete all the ones that do not come up to the standards of behavior expected of this forum. It may take a while so I hope everyone will be indulgent in the meantime. In addition I shall limit my posts, if any, to content more appropriate to users; I realize that over time I have perhaps responded to posts in ways that should really be the province of the administrators. I especially regret having slashed members at the knees; if any members feel that they have been the victims of such vicious behavior on my part they should immediately PM me for an absolutely sincere apology and the removal of the relevant post.

If I should be banned from this forum anyway, I wish to thank and say goodbye to all the members who have made my Inkscape learning experience such a rewarding experience and for those who have used their programming skills to compile and post invaluable additions and tools to this forum. I hope people have found the few tutorial-type posts I have made helpful, if they are deleted I will try to make them available elsewhere on the 'net.
.... Thanks for all the fish!

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 9:12 am
by brynn
For goodness sakes!
You aren't going to be banned, druban.

PS - I'm locking this topic, to make sure the discussion ends here.

Re: need Filter Editor icon

Posted: Tue May 28, 2013 5:29 pm
by brynn
This topic will stay locked. But I just wanted to say publicly that I've accepted druban's apology.