few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

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tester21
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few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

Postby tester21 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:52 pm

Hello,

I have few questions, not sure how to phrase keywords to find answers via search.

1)

In old days, for simple graphical works - I was using PaintShopPro by Jasc. There was a feature called "Adjustment Layer". For example you could add (and manipulate live) a layer, that changed colors or hue or things like that (for all bottom layers with vectors and images) . The advantage of this was also, that you could quickly turn it on or off or switch between layers with different settings. Also - you could add new objects to the bottom, without interfering in the structure of what was already there.

How to get similar effect in inkscape?

2)

"Ghost image" or "Ghost layer".

Let say that I created a vector.

Scenario 1. I copy and paste this vector to some place else. I'd like that this vector follows selected groups of modifications added on source vector (for example - follow rotation, resize, skew, new elements, but keep color or opacity or blur).

Scenario 2. A sort of "drop shadow" layer. On one layer I'm creating objects, on second layer I have defined drop shadow for them (can make multiple layers with different settings), and I can easily turn it on or off.

Any ideas how to approach it?

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brynn
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Re: few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

Postby brynn » Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:21 pm

For #1, it depends on what kind of adjustments you want to make. For the most part, what you describe are raster features. Inkscape can apply some of those to layer. Layers menu > Layers to open the Layers dialog. There, you can apply any of 5 different Blend Modes - screen, multiply, darken, lighten, or normal (which is no blend mode). It blends colors or aspects of colors, of all the objects in that layer, with everything else in the image, according to the rules of the blend mode.

you could add new objects to the bottom, without interfering in the structure of what was already there.


That's a basic feature of vector graphics. It's not a special feature. It's part of the heart and soul of vector graphics (to my way of thinking).

Also, I'm not sure exactly what you mean when you mention layers. In Inkscape, there are layers. And then there is also the z-order of objects. You can have any number of objects stacked on top of each other, but they aren't called layers. It's the z-order of the objects. If that's what you mean, then yes, absolutely. Again, it's part of what I think of as the essence of vector graphics.

Scenario 1. I copy and paste this vector to some place else. I'd like that this vector follows selected groups of modifications added on source vector (for example - follow rotation, resize, skew, new elements, but keep color or opacity or blur).


I think you might be talking about Clones.

#2) Scenario 2: I think the answer is yes. These are all things that are vey basic to vector graphics. There are no special tricks to do them.

I suggest trying some tutorials. Help menu > Inkscape manual (with internet connection) > Quick Start chapter contains a series of tutorials design to teach the basics (and probably then some). When I was first learning Inkscape, I found Help menu > Tutorials very helpful - specifically Basic, Shapes, and Advanced (even though called "advanced" is an introduction to paths, and really is for beginners)(imo). See my signature for more learning resources.

tester21
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Re: few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

Postby tester21 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:20 pm

Thanks for quick reply.

As for pt1, yes, I'm speaking about layers, not order of objects on a layer. I am interested in having a common adjustment layer that affects all bottom layers in the same "raster" way (WYSIWYG so to speak). Thus, vectors "as is" are unaffected on their layer, they are just covered by a layer, that contains adjustment data. (I guess they are treated then virtually as an output/WYSIWYG raster?).

As for pt 2. Yes, clones solved the problem, thanks. BTW, "drop shadow" can be pushed onto a second layer? (shadow only, not the main object).

My way of learning is in doing specific tasks of my design (conceptual idea -> getting result). It's not like assembler programming. :-) I usually need just a specific keyword or key idea, to figure out how things work

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Re: few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

Postby Xav » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:54 pm

It sounds like you're looking for filters - but there's no GUI way in Inkscape to apply a general filter to a layer, it needs to be done by editing the XML and then causes confusion within Inkscape.

Instead you're better off putting all the objects you want to modify into a single group and then applying the filter to the group. With this approach the filter will apply to objects in the group, but not any others. You can enter the group to edit the objects or add/delete them. Unfortunately 0.91 doesn't seem to update the display of groups "live" when you edit the filter parameters (I'm sure 0.48 was better in this respect, but can't test it at the moment), which makes it a little frustrating to work in this way as you need to keep turning the filter off and on to see the results.

An alternative is to *not* group your objects, but to apply the same filter to all of them. That even allows your objects to be on different layers, if you want. Editing the filter parameters will then apply to all of them simultaneously.

Having said all that, filters are *hard*. There are some stock ones in the Filters menu, and Inkscape 0.91 adds parameters to a lot of them (the ones ending in an ellipsis, "…") which makes them more approachable. But you'll only get the full power of them via the Filter Editor dialog, which is tricky to get your head round even when you know how it's supposed to work!


So depending on exactly what you want to achieve, I would suggest selecting a few objects and playing with the stock filters, or coming back with more specific questions if the existing filters aren't what you're looking for.



For something like putting a drop shadow onto another layer you would need to use a clone with suitable modifications - probably a filter to give the shadow effect, but without the merge part that usually overlays the source object. To be honest, though, you wouldn't usually put a drop shadow onto another layer like that in Inkscape - you'd just use a filter on the object(s) that you want to have a shadow.
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bartovan
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Re: few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

Postby bartovan » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:19 pm

The kind of manipulative layers the OP talks about exist in Krita (an open source combined raster and vector drawing program) and in Synfig Studio (open source vector animation, steep learning curve). They are interesting, but as Inkscape is trying to follow as closely as possible the SVG standards, it is not to be expected to be implemented in Inkscape (at least, that's my understanding, I'm just a user). Which doesn't mean similar effects can't be achieved, only in other ways.
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brynn
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Re: few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

Postby brynn » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:08 pm

I am interested in having a common adjustment layer that affects all bottom layers in the same "raster" way (WYSIWYG so to speak).


The part that's tripping me up is "all bottom layers". There really can only be 1 bottom layer, by the definition of "bottom".

The blend mode on layers would affect all other layers, not just the bottom one.

In Inkscape layers are really special groups (because there's no SVG standard for layers). So as a group, I GUESS it might be possible to apply a filter to a layer. I guess you'd have to use the XML Editor to make it work, although I couldn't say exactly how.

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Re: few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

Postby bartovan » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:28 pm

It's how it works in Krita and Synfig. A "transform layer" (eg. blur) has effect on all layers below it in the stack, basically. (See eg. http://wiki.synfig.org/Rotate_Layer)
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Re: few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

Postby tester21 » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:07 am

Okay, thanks alot for explanations. You clarified few things here.

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Espermaschine
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Re: few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

Postby Espermaschine » Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:09 am

Adjustment layers are something you have in Photoshop. What OP described sounds exactly like that.

I dont know how it works, but the neat thing is that its not a permanent alteration. Its more like a filter.
Brynn said that its a raster thing. Im not sure about this.
Photoshop seems to mix raster and vector. I think the layerstyles are at least in some aspects vector and some of the filters (Cutout) seem to be vector too.

You dont have that in Gimp, which is a rasterbased graphics program. And (unfortunately) Gimp doesnt have those adjustment layers Photoshop has.
So theres something in that technology that distinguishes Gimp from PS.

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brynn
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Re: few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

Postby brynn » Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:28 pm

Espermaschine wrote:Brynn said that its a raster thing. Im not sure about this.

It sort of sounds that way to me, but I've never heard of this kind of feature.

tester21
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Re: few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

Postby tester21 » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:35 pm

When I used old PaintShopPro when it was still made by Jasc (not the Corel buy-out/iteration), it worked like a filter on both - rasters and vectors. From computer screen perspective (WYSIWYG - what you see is what you get) - vectors were treated in the same way as raster layers. Everything what was below adjustments layers - was affected in the same way.

I don't use gimpg/photoshop, so I'm not sure how it works there.

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Re: few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

Postby v1nce » Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:10 am


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Espermaschine
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Re: few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

Postby Espermaschine » Fri Nov 27, 2015 5:50 am


I'd like to be able to bind an extension or a filter or a LPE (collection) to a layer instead of simply being able to set the blend mode.

Say I got an effect that emulates the dissolve filter (as in Gimp) and another filter that emulates a color reduction.


What is the Dissolve filter in Gimp ?
There is a Dissolve layermode, which is a different thing.

Somebody on google+ said they added more layermodes for the next IS version. Not sure its true.

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Re: few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

Postby v1nce » Fri Nov 27, 2015 11:45 pm

Yes on gimp dissolve is a "layermode"

But layermode are nothing else that a special case of filters with a 0-100% strength(/opacity/alpha) parameter.

The dissolve layer is the layer that is closer from a filter because you don't only need two images and a more/less complex operator as theorized by Porter/Duff but an additional random layer (or a rand function in the operator)
So you usually don't find it in description of layer mode
http://dunnbypaul.net/blends/

tester21
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Re: few questions (drop shadow layer, adjustments layers)

Postby tester21 » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:50 am

Filters do the job (maybe even better because it's object based; no need for layers) from what I can say.


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